From james at atomless.com Fri Jan 2 07:34:39 2009 From: james at atomless.com (James Tindall) Date: Fri Jan 2 07:32:45 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] hatom comments? Message-ID: <495E340F.7070904@atomless.com> Hello and Happy New Year to all, I'm looking for some guidance on how to markup comments in hatom formatted xhtml - I've seen the comment on the hatom issues page from Ken Wronkiewicz but didn't find the RFC 4864 link particularly enlightening. Any examples would be appreciated. James From martin at weborganics.co.uk Fri Jan 2 08:05:39 2009 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Fri Jan 2 08:05:44 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] hatom comments? In-Reply-To: <495E340F.7070904@atomless.com> References: <495E340F.7070904@atomless.com> Message-ID: <495E3B53.90202@weborganics.co.uk> James Tindall wrote: > Hello and Happy New Year to all, Happy new year to you too James > > I'm looking for some guidance on how to markup comments in hatom > formatted xhtml - I've seen the comment on the hatom issues page from > Ken Wronkiewicz but didn't find the RFC 4864 link particularly > enlightening. Any examples would be appreciated. There is a fairly recent effort here http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-brainstorming also you may like to look here http://microformats.org/wiki/comment for the full history I hope you find that helpful Best wishes -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ "You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive." Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia From james at atomless.com Fri Jan 2 10:57:49 2009 From: james at atomless.com (James Tindall) Date: Fri Jan 2 10:55:57 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] hatom comments? In-Reply-To: <495E3B53.90202@weborganics.co.uk> References: <495E340F.7070904@atomless.com> <495E3B53.90202@weborganics.co.uk> Message-ID: <495E63AD.6070102@atomless.com> Perfect! I should have done a search on the wiki - can't see a link to these comment pages from the front page or hatom pages though? Thanks Martin, James Martin McEvoy wrote: > James Tindall wrote: >> Hello and Happy New Year to all, > Happy new year to you too James >> >> I'm looking for some guidance on how to markup comments in hatom >> formatted xhtml - I've seen the comment on the hatom issues page from >> Ken Wronkiewicz but didn't find the RFC 4864 link particularly >> enlightening. Any examples would be appreciated. > > There is a fairly recent effort here > http://microformats.org/wiki/comment-brainstorming > > also you may like to look here http://microformats.org/wiki/comment > for the full history > > I hope you find that helpful > > Best wishes > -- ----------------------------------------- James Tindall http://www.atomless.com/ T : +44(0)1305 250 377 M : +44(0)7971 012 032 F : +44(0)1305 250 377 ----------------------------------------- From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Mon Jan 5 01:05:07 2009 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Mon Jan 5 01:05:14 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki plugin Message-ID: <485E4E6B-A39F-4162-B3CC-B6D4521F6495@tobyinkster.co.uk> I don't know much about MediaWiki, but surely it's possible to create a plugin which looks at edits from users with no edit history, and blocks the edit if and only if it seems to create a one-word paragraph at the top of the page? That would kill the majority of this rubbish: http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges -- Toby A Inkster From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Mon Jan 5 10:52:27 2009 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Mon Jan 5 10:52:35 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki plugin In-Reply-To: <485E4E6B-A39F-4162-B3CC-B6D4521F6495@tobyinkster.co.uk> References: <485E4E6B-A39F-4162-B3CC-B6D4521F6495@tobyinkster.co.uk> Message-ID: <83E9E76D-4547-4FC9-BDF5-5212AF4BE1FA@ben-ward.co.uk> Hi Toby, On 5 Jan 2009, at 01:05, Toby A Inkster wrote: > I don't know much about MediaWiki, but surely it's possible to > create a plugin which looks at edits from users with no edit > history, and blocks the edit if and only if it seems to create a one- > word paragraph at the top of the page? Maybe. And, yes, probably. Alas, the plugins I've written for MW are just simple parsing extensions, more complex stuff I've no idea about the capabilities. I've created a new issue under wiki-2-issues (http://microformats.org/wiki/wiki-2-issues#Spam ) for this one. If we could try to collect notes of things we think should be enhanced with MW extensions over the next week (on wiki-2-issues), then we'll push the most urgent onto the microformats blog and around our various networks and see if someone more experienced with MW can help us out. Of course, if that person is already on ?f-discuss, help us Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're our only hope! B From martin at weborganics.co.uk Mon Jan 5 12:05:04 2009 From: martin at weborganics.co.uk (Martin McEvoy) Date: Mon Jan 5 12:05:14 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki plugin In-Reply-To: <83E9E76D-4547-4FC9-BDF5-5212AF4BE1FA@ben-ward.co.uk> References: <485E4E6B-A39F-4162-B3CC-B6D4521F6495@tobyinkster.co.uk> <83E9E76D-4547-4FC9-BDF5-5212AF4BE1FA@ben-ward.co.uk> Message-ID: <496267F0.8010607@weborganics.co.uk> It looks to me like the wiki is being spammed by a bot or bots, I have suffered problems like this. I stopped it by changing the form names to to something gibberish, nothing standard "wpTextbox1" would be come "ZifG5ut" nonsense basically, a good Idea is to change the form names regularly, then you can encode the submit, preview and show pages buttons in Java script and insert them using a function. Its effective because most people who run bots to spam wikis and blogs dont want to be bothered creating a special script just for your site, they go for the low hanging fruit, the easy money and in the end its nothing personal they just move on ;-) Hope this Helps Ben Ward wrote: > Hi Toby, > > On 5 Jan 2009, at 01:05, Toby A Inkster wrote: > >> I don't know much about MediaWiki, but surely it's possible to create >> a plugin which looks at edits from users with no edit history, and >> blocks the edit if and only if it seems to create a one-word >> paragraph at the top of the page? > > Maybe. And, yes, probably. Alas, the plugins I've written for MW are > just simple parsing extensions, more complex stuff I've no idea about > the capabilities. > > I've created a new issue under wiki-2-issues > (http://microformats.org/wiki/wiki-2-issues#Spam) for this one. > > If we could try to collect notes of things we think should be enhanced > with MW extensions over the next week (on wiki-2-issues), then we'll > push the most urgent onto the microformats blog and around our various > networks and see if someone more experienced with MW can help us out. > Of course, if that person is already on ?f-discuss, help us Obi-Wan > Kenobi, you're our only hope! > > B > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- Martin McEvoy http://weborganics.co.uk/ "You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive." Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Mon Jan 5 16:03:22 2009 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Mon Jan 5 16:03:27 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki plugin In-Reply-To: <496267F0.8010607@weborganics.co.uk> References: <485E4E6B-A39F-4162-B3CC-B6D4521F6495@tobyinkster.co.uk> <83E9E76D-4547-4FC9-BDF5-5212AF4BE1FA@ben-ward.co.uk> <496267F0.8010607@weborganics.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi Martin, thanks for your comments. On 5 Jan 2009, at 12:05, Martin McEvoy wrote: > It looks to me like the wiki is being spammed by a bot or bots, I > have suffered problems like this. The wiki has been spammed for a long long time. The the past, the admins watch changes come through the #microformats IRC channel and kill spam as it happens. That, surprisingly, has scaled OK until we upgraded MediaWiki, which didn't work with our current IRC bot? meaning we nolonger get a live stream of updates, and instead have to check the Recent Changes page manually. Restoring the IRC bot (or an XMPP+IRC version, ideally) is another desired plugin. > I stopped it by changing the form names to to something gibberish, > nothing standard "wpTextbox1" would be come "ZifG5ut" nonsense > basically, a good Idea is to change the form names regularly, then > you can encode the submit, preview and show pages buttons in Java > script and insert them using a function. Its effective because most > people who run bots to spam wikis and blogs dont want to be bothered > creating a special script just for your site, they go for the low > hanging fruit, the easy money and in the end its nothing personal > they just move on ;-) The problem with this solution for us is that we are keen not to change code in the MediaWiki core, as it makes future upgrades for security patches more difficult. The reason it took quite so much work for me to do the last upgrade was from changes being made to core code rather than added as extensions, so I'm loathe to do anything too drastic. Unfortunately, MediaWiki is built in such a way that the form mark-up is all generated out of the core, rather than templates, so we can't adjust field names, and doing so (and adjusting the form handling) would definitely fall into ?drastic? core hacking. I've got a bit of time this week before I go back to work, so I'm trying to take on a number of outstanding ?f issues. I'll try and look into anti-spam extensions some more. Cheers, Ben > Ben Ward wrote: >> Hi Toby, >> >> On 5 Jan 2009, at 01:05, Toby A Inkster wrote: >> >>> I don't know much about MediaWiki, but surely it's possible to >>> create a plugin which looks at edits from users with no edit >>> history, and blocks the edit if and only if it seems to create a >>> one-word paragraph at the top of the page? >> >> Maybe. And, yes, probably. Alas, the plugins I've written for MW >> are just simple parsing extensions, more complex stuff I've no idea >> about the capabilities. >> >> I've created a new issue under wiki-2-issues (http://microformats.org/wiki/wiki-2-issues#Spam >> ) for this one. >> >> If we could try to collect notes of things we think should be >> enhanced with MW extensions over the next week (on wiki-2-issues), >> then we'll push the most urgent onto the microformats blog and >> around our various networks and see if someone more experienced >> with MW can help us out. Of course, if that person is already on ?f- >> discuss, help us Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're our only hope! >> >> B >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > > -- > Martin McEvoy > > http://weborganics.co.uk/ > > "You may find it hard to swallow the notion that anything as large > and apparently inanimate as the Earth is alive." > Dr. James Lovelock, The Ages of Gaia > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From jeremie.patonnier at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 09:52:49 2009 From: jeremie.patonnier at gmail.com (Jeremie Patonnier) Date: Tue Jan 6 09:52:58 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] A suggestion to address date accessibility issues Message-ID: <7a534a480901060952p601c5240yfb3c446ea66b73d8@mail.gmail.com> Hi everyone, This is the first time I come here. I'm a French Webdesigner and I have a suggestion to address some issue on using dates with microformats. This come after reading this : http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern The abbr pattern doesn't suit well with accessibility concern due to the use of a machine only understandable date format in the title attribute. If we think in the logic of "Human First, Machine Second", we should first consider the way human write and read date and time. Then, in a second step we should give the machines the ability to understand the human logic. If we think this way, we can imagine the next story: 1. Authors write their dates as they like (eg. 12/24/2008 or December the 24th, 2008). 2. Then, they could specify the language they used through the lang attribute (this is an original HTLM behavior). 3. And in the end, they must specify the format they used to give the machines the ability to understand the human way of thinking. The first 2 points are natively mastered by every common CMS and at least manage by any HTML users. So, the third point is the key. There are basically 7 major parts in a human date: * The day * The month * The year * The hours * The minutes * The seconds * The part of the day (AM or PM) All of them could be either a number (possibly with a 0 at the beginning of the first 9 figures) or a string (except for the part of the day that only could be a string). All the string in those cases depends on the local used by the authors. Those 7 parts could be separated by anything (even if in reality, there are more or less 20 characters used by authors) So, Can we embed the date format in class name? We can imagine something like that: 1. Use a generic prefix to prevent class name collision and make it easily understandable by processor (eg. "df_" which mean "date format") 2. Build a scheme base upon the 7 parts seen before (by identifying the parts using a simple letter such as the common D, M, Y, H, M, S and A for the part of the day) 3. If necessary use a suffix to specify the calendar or time zone you used (eg. _GMT1 for the Greenwich Mean Time plus one hour or _JULIAN for the Julian calendar) To prevent the lack of local support by the microformat processor, it's possible to use the title attribute to embed a number only (human readable) date format. So, what it looks like? Example of a full statement: 18 Janvier 2008 ? 18h12 Example of a short statement: 31/01/2008 What do you think about such a solution? Is it a good compromise to address accessibility issues AND technical issues? Regards, Jeremie Patonnier From aleksander.kmetec at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 22:01:27 2009 From: aleksander.kmetec at gmail.com (Aleksander Kmetec) Date: Tue Jan 6 22:01:37 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mobile browser with support for microformats Message-ID: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> Hey, everyone! I was hoping you could give me some feedback on my proof-of-concept mobile bowser which is called Mosembro. It is meant to demonstrate how taking advantage of embedded semantic metadata (in this case microformats) can help us build a more user-friendly browser for mobile devices. Since mobile devices are much more awkward to use than full size computers, even simple things like automating a task which would otherwise require you to copy some text from one app to another, can make a huge difference. You can have a look at it here: http://lexandera.com/mosembro/ Regards, Aleksander From jeremy at adactio.com Wed Jan 7 03:40:29 2009 From: jeremy at adactio.com (Jeremy Keith) Date: Wed Jan 7 03:40:34 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mobile browser with support for microformats In-Reply-To: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> References: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5EE3FC77-65F9-4091-BBDE-D50A031EDC10@adactio.com> Aleksander wrote: > I was hoping you could give me some feedback on my proof-of-concept > mobile bowser which is called Mosembro I saw this earlier and my feedback is: "Excellent!" It's the kind of thing that I really wish were built in to the iPhone/iPod Touch. If I had a criticism, it would just be that I'm not sure if displaying the microformats logo is appropriate. I think that microformats are one of those things that should be invisible: end users should never need to know what's making the magic happen. Showing an icon of the maps app would probably convey more meaning. So basically any criticisms I've got are with the UI, not the implementation ...which looks great. Nicely done. Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ From andr3.pt at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 04:28:39 2009 From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=) Date: Wed Jan 7 04:28:41 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mobile browser with support for microformats In-Reply-To: <5EE3FC77-65F9-4091-BBDE-D50A031EDC10@adactio.com> References: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> <5EE3FC77-65F9-4091-BBDE-D50A031EDC10@adactio.com> Message-ID: Very well done Aleksander! On top of the previous comment, I'd add that inserting links *into* the page is a bit... bully-ish. Wouldn't it be better to follow the Operator or Oomph approach? A bar/icon representing that there is indeed semantic data in the page (ie, a vcard icon for hcards, or a globe icon for adr), and then presenting an overlay or a list of stuff found? From discussions in the past, imho, the best approach to physically identify where the data is on the page, would be adding a sidebar to the chrome of the browser and adding icons vertically aligned with the data... What do you think, is it feasible on your browser? Also, I'm wondering... is this the regular android browser with this functionality added on top? Do you have any plan on how to keep this browser updated with the future developments on their end? Well, regardless, you've done a great job. I'm using my stupid n80 and I cringe every time I visit a page that i *know* it has ufs but I have no means to *get* them. :) Thank you and keep it up! -- Andr? Lu?s On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Jeremy Keith wrote: > > Aleksander wrote: >> >> I was hoping you could give me some feedback on my proof-of-concept mobile bowser which is called Mosembro > > I saw this earlier and my feedback is: "Excellent!" It's the kind of thing that I really wish were built in to the iPhone/iPod Touch. > > If I had a criticism, it would just be that I'm not sure if displaying the microformats logo is appropriate. I think that microformats are one of those things that should be invisible: end users should never need to know what's making the magic happen. Showing an icon of the maps app would probably convey more meaning. > > So basically any criticisms I've got are with the UI, not the implementation ...which looks great. > > Nicely done. > > Bye, > > Jeremy > > -- > Jeremy Keith > > a d a c t i o > > http://adactio.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Wed Jan 7 06:39:32 2009 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Wed Jan 7 06:39:49 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] A suggestion to address date accessibility issues Message-ID: <04AE155D-72A8-4206-9A73-0289051467F8@tobyinkster.co.uk> Jeremie, something along those lines has been proposed before. See: http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design- pattern#strtime_instructions_as_class_names There are some problems noted there, which I think would have to be overcome before people would consider something like this. -- Toby A Inkster From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Wed Jan 7 08:57:19 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Wed Jan 7 08:57:28 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mobile browser with support for microformats In-Reply-To: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> References: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20901070857i27942d26uf38b409336a95f71@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Aleksander Kmetec wrote: > > Hey, everyone! > > I was hoping you could give me some feedback on my proof-of-concept mobile bowser which is called Mosembro. > > It is meant to demonstrate how taking advantage of embedded semantic metadata (in this case microformats) can help us build a more user-friendly browser for mobile devices. Since mobile devices are much more awkward to use than full size computers, even simple things like automating a task which would otherwise require you to copy some text from one app to another, can make a huge difference. > > You can have a look at it here: > http://lexandera.com/mosembro/ > > Regards, > Aleksander Nice, +1. -- David Janes Mercenary Programmer http://code.davidjanes.com From aleksander.kmetec at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 09:02:20 2009 From: aleksander.kmetec at gmail.com (Aleksander Kmetec) Date: Wed Jan 7 09:02:29 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mobile browser with support for microformats In-Reply-To: References: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> <5EE3FC77-65F9-4091-BBDE-D50A031EDC10@adactio.com> Message-ID: <4964E01C.2020702@gmail.com> Thanks, guys. It's great coming home from work and finding such positive reviews. Andr? Lu?s wrote: > On top of the previous comment, I'd add that inserting links *into* > the page is a bit... bully-ish. Wouldn't it be better to follow the > Operator or Oomph approach? A bar/icon representing that there is These links can actually be turned off and all possible actions are always available under a special menu. I know; I should create a newer video which shows off all the features (the current one is from 10 months ago), but for now, here's a screenshot: http://lexandera.com/files/mosembro/menu-and-options.png > Also, I'm wondering... is this the regular android browser with this > functionality added on top? Do you have any plan on how to keep this > browser updated with the future developments on their end? It's built around the same web component that Android's browser uses, but the UI code is different; although it would certainly be possible to extend the standard browser since it's all open source. But for now the plan is to keep the code a minimal as possible so it's simple to change. Hopefully, the idea of supporting microformats in mobile browsers will become popular enough so that someone else does all the hard work of adding it to the existing products. ;) Regards, Aleksander From bjonkman at sobac.com Wed Jan 7 19:09:19 2009 From: bjonkman at sobac.com (Bob Jonkman) Date: Wed Jan 7 19:09:47 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki plugin In-Reply-To: References: <485E4E6B-A39F-4162-B3CC-B6D4521F6495@tobyinkster.co.uk>, <496267F0.8010607@weborganics.co.uk>, Message-ID: <49656E5F.29361.14687394@bjonkman.sobac.com> On 5 Jan 2009, at 12:05, Martin McEvoy wrote: >> It looks to me like the wiki is being spammed by a bot or bots [...] > >> I stopped it by changing the form names to to something gibberish, >> nothing standard "wpTextbox1" would be come "ZifG5ut" nonsense >> basically, a good Idea is to change the form names regularly, then >> you can encode the submit, preview and show pages buttons in Java >> script and insert them using a function This seems like a contrary thing to do for an organization that advocates POSHness. Shouldn't form names be semantically meaningful, like any other markup? And Javascrippling a form excludes anyone who intentionally disables scripting for security, never mind those folks who need to browse with a text-based browser for accessibility issues (I know of no text-based Javascript browsers). I'm not saying that form obfuscation isn't effective to combat spam, but that's not our dogfood. --Bob. From ryan at theryanking.com Wed Jan 7 20:26:20 2009 From: ryan at theryanking.com (Ryan King) Date: Wed Jan 7 20:26:26 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki plugin In-Reply-To: <49656E5F.29361.14687394@bjonkman.sobac.com> References: <485E4E6B-A39F-4162-B3CC-B6D4521F6495@tobyinkster.co.uk>, <496267F0.8010607@weborganics.co.uk>, <49656E5F.29361.14687394@bjonkman.sobac.com> Message-ID: <4001D654-C4F9-44AE-8DC3-87C50AF2FC13@theryanking.com> On Jan 7, 2009, at 7:09 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote: > On 5 Jan 2009, at 12:05, Martin McEvoy wrote: >>> It looks to me like the wiki is being spammed by a bot or bots >>> [...] >> >>> I stopped it by changing the form names to to something gibberish, >>> nothing standard "wpTextbox1" would be come "ZifG5ut" nonsense >>> basically, a good Idea is to change the form names regularly, then >>> you can encode the submit, preview and show pages buttons in Java >>> script and insert them using a function > > This seems like a contrary thing to do for an organization that > advocates POSHness. > Shouldn't form names be semantically meaningful, like any other > markup? And > Javascrippling a form excludes anyone who intentionally disables > scripting for security, > never mind those folks who need to browse with a text-based browser > for accessibility > issues (I know of no text-based Javascript browsers). > > I'm not saying that form obfuscation isn't effective to combat spam, > but that's not our > dogfood. I think we'd all be more than willing to hear suggestions for spam fighting methods that are equally effective. Or, at least, an offer to police the recent updates page. :) -ryan From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Thu Jan 8 14:52:45 2009 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Thu Jan 8 14:52:53 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki plugin In-Reply-To: <485E4E6B-A39F-4162-B3CC-B6D4521F6495@tobyinkster.co.uk> References: <485E4E6B-A39F-4162-B3CC-B6D4521F6495@tobyinkster.co.uk> Message-ID: <404A85AD-A7C7-4878-A978-D0C7DFA3EA84@ben-ward.co.uk> Update on this: We've added the ReCaptcha extension to our MediaWiki install, which provides a visual and audio captcha to the sign up process, against brute force password login attacks and a few other scenarios. It should significantly raise the barrier of entry for spam bots. Critically, it doesn't add anything to logging in or editing pages, so your regular workflows should be unaffected. Let me know if you have any problems, Thanks, Ben On 5 Jan 2009, at 01:05, Toby A Inkster wrote: > I don't know much about MediaWiki, but surely it's possible to > create a plugin which looks at edits from users with no edit > history, and blocks the edit if and only if it seems to create a one- > word paragraph at the top of the page? That would kill the majority > of this rubbish: > > http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges > > -- > Toby A Inkster > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From james at atomless.com Fri Jan 9 04:34:21 2009 From: james at atomless.com (James Tindall) Date: Fri Jan 9 04:36:34 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] dates and hatom In-Reply-To: <04AE155D-72A8-4206-9A73-0289051467F8@tobyinkster.co.uk> References: <04AE155D-72A8-4206-9A73-0289051467F8@tobyinkster.co.uk> Message-ID: <4967444D.7030606@atomless.com> I've been playing with the friendfeed api in order to output hatom formated content. Is there any kind of consensus on the best solution from all those that have been proposed for the date-time problem. At the moment I think I favour the 'machine data in class' solution proposed by the bbc : http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern#Machine-data_in_class However, I'm not unsure how to handle time zones that are ahead of GMT and so require a suffix of '+hhmm' as '+' is not a valid character for a class name. I couldn't find mention of this on the wiki page. Also, the wiki examples initially specify using a date in ISO 8601 format but then in the 'machine data in class' examples it has changed from 'YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS-ZZ:ZZ' to 'YYYYMMDDTHH:MM:SS-ZZ:ZZ' - is there a reason for this and is it still considered to be ISO 8601 without the hyphens? And how about just using the time zone abbreviation in place of the time zone offset would that work with the parsers that have already added support for this? During testing the parsers listed here: http://microformats.tumblr.com/post/64799295/extracting-meaningful-content-from-hatom-formatted * All but one fails to extract the published/updated dates. * Only one or two successfully extract any images. * None of them extract any comments. I know there's no comment support yet under hatom but wondered whether any of the parsers support comment extraction at all? Any tips/suggestions on what needs to change in my markup in order to improve extraction (or for any other reasons :) would be much appreciated. The site I'm currently trying this out on is : http://noise.jamestindall.info/ cheers, James From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Fri Jan 9 05:09:08 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Fri Jan 9 05:09:12 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] dates and hatom In-Reply-To: <4967444D.7030606@atomless.com> References: <04AE155D-72A8-4206-9A73-0289051467F8@tobyinkster.co.uk> <4967444D.7030606@atomless.com> Message-ID: <21e523c20901090509y42a6ff22ha833e23903c44e20@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 7:34 AM, James Tindall wrote: > I've been playing with the friendfeed api in order to output hatom formated > content. > > Is there any kind of consensus on the best solution from all those that have > been proposed for the date-time problem. > > At the moment I think I favour the 'machine data in class' solution proposed > by the bbc : > http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern#Machine-data_in_class > However, I'm not unsure how to handle time zones that are ahead of GMT and > so require a suffix of '+hhmm' as '+' is not a valid character for a class > name. I couldn't find mention of this on the wiki page. > > Also, the wiki examples initially specify using a date in ISO 8601 format > but then in the 'machine data in class' examples it has changed from > 'YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS-ZZ:ZZ' to 'YYYYMMDDTHH:MM:SS-ZZ:ZZ' - is there a > reason for this and is it still considered to be ISO 8601 without the > hyphens? And how about just using the time zone abbreviation in place of the > time zone offset would that work with the parsers that have already added > support for this? > > During testing the parsers listed here: > http://microformats.tumblr.com/post/64799295/extracting-meaningful-content-from-hatom-formatted > * All but one fails to extract the published/updated dates. > * Only one or two successfully extract any images. > * None of them extract any comments. I know there's no comment support yet > under hatom but wondered whether any of the parsers support comment > extraction at all? > > Any tips/suggestions on what needs to change in my markup in order to > improve extraction (or for any other reasons :) would be much appreciated. > The site I'm currently trying this out on is : > http://noise.jamestindall.info/ Just to make this perfectly clear, this isn't a specific hAtom problem/issue. hAtom piggybacks on the datetime design pattern [1] where a solution, if needed, should be found. Within that, datetimes are formatted using the ISO8601 standard [2] and there's lots o' linky goodness on that page. Regards, etc... [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/iso-8601 -- David Janes Mercenary Programmer http://code.davidjanes.com From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Fri Jan 9 06:42:11 2009 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Fri Jan 9 06:42:21 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki plugin Message-ID: <21EDB6AA-CEFC-4DE4-98B0-02537CA627F4@tobyinkster.co.uk> Ben Ward wrote: > Critically, it doesn't add anything to logging in or editing pages, so > your regular workflows should be unaffected. It does seem to come up when editing pages - at least when adding/ changing external links. -- Toby A Inkster From proppy at aminche.com Fri Jan 9 10:00:53 2009 From: proppy at aminche.com (proppy@aminche.com) Date: Fri Jan 9 10:01:03 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki hResume templates Message-ID: <496790D5.10203@aminche.com> Hi, I would like to share the following Resume templates for MediaWiki, which should generate compatible hResume microformat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Proppy/Resume/doc Feel free to review and comment, Thanks in advance. From m at klml.de Fri Jan 9 12:21:13 2009 From: m at klml.de (Klaus Mueller) Date: Fri Jan 9 12:21:19 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki hResume templates In-Reply-To: <496790D5.10203@aminche.com> References: <496790D5.10203@aminche.com> Message-ID: <4967B1B9.4050705@klml.de> Hi > which should generate compatible hResume microformat: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Proppy/Resume/doc > > Feel free to review and comment, > pretty cool, I tried some templates for hcard, adr and hcalendar. http://www.monacomedia.de/muenchenwiki/index.php/M%C3%BCnchen_Wiki:Mikroformat Would you think a overviewpage Microformats on mediawiki.org would be useful? greetz klml -- Klaus Mueller He?stra?e 90 80797 M?nchen +49 89 18 98 58 21 +49 178 54 38 400 klml.de From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Jan 10 07:01:24 2009 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Jan 10 07:01:34 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki hResume templates Message-ID: <089A2FCF-1551-48F6-8470-E5CB41FDC36C@tobyinkster.co.uk> It is my interpretation of the hResume draft spec (though it's not very clear) that the contact hCard needs to be an
element (you have a element). While class="contact" is good POSH for it, but the hResume format itself doesn't define any meaning for class="contact", so using
is the only sure fire way of indicating the contact address for the hResume. If you take a look at the hResume field details , then you'll see that unlike "summary", "education", "experience", "skill" and "affiliation", "contact" is not defined as a class name. See also: http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume#Contact Frankly, this is an area where I think hResume could do with improvement: although
is a perfect fit for this information semantically, structurally it leaves a lot to be desired. The way
is defined in the HTML spec doesn't allow it to contain block elements (e.g.
,

) or tables. Thus allowing an alternative element for the contact info (e.g.

,
) would be handy. -- Toby A Inkster From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Sat Jan 10 09:39:23 2009 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek Celik) Date: Sat Jan 10 09:40:03 2009 Subject: hResume
issue (was Re: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki hResume templates) In-Reply-To: <089A2FCF-1551-48F6-8470-E5CB41FDC36C@tobyinkster.co.uk> References: <089A2FCF-1551-48F6-8470-E5CB41FDC36C@tobyinkster.co.uk> Message-ID: <752698193-1231609195-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2106915295-@bxe346.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Toby, I tend to agree with your criticism of
and have logged a similar issue on hAtom: http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues Could you add your specific documentation of this hResume issue to the hResume issues page? http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-issues Thanks! Tantek -----Original Message----- From: Toby A Inkster Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:01:24 To: Subject: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki hResume templates It is my interpretation of the hResume draft spec (though it's not very clear) that the contact hCard needs to be an
element (you have a
element). While class="contact" is good POSH for it, but the hResume format itself doesn't define any meaning for class="contact", so using
is the only sure fire way of indicating the contact address for the hResume. If you take a look at the hResume field details , then you'll see that unlike "summary", "education", "experience", "skill" and "affiliation", "contact" is not defined as a class name. See also: http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume#Contact Frankly, this is an area where I think hResume could do with improvement: although
is a perfect fit for this information semantically, structurally it leaves a lot to be desired. The way
is defined in the HTML spec doesn't allow it to contain block elements (e.g.
,

) or tables. Thus allowing an alternative element for the contact info (e.g.

,
) would be handy. -- Toby A Inkster _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Jan 10 13:48:32 2009 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Jan 10 13:48:53 2009 Subject: hResume
issue (was Re: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki hResume templates) Message-ID: <7C5B6B0C-FEB9-44C5-8F4F-2E25F4194276@tobyinkster.co.uk> Tantek wrote: > Could you add your specific documentation of this hResume issue to > the hResume issues page? > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-issues It's already on there (last item) - added by Steve Ganz in 2006. Which reminds me... linkedin.com has recently started to do really annoying things with their hCard titles. :-( -- Toby A Inkster From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Sat Jan 10 15:15:29 2009 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (Tantek Celik) Date: Sat Jan 10 15:16:12 2009 Subject: hResume
issue (was Re: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki hResumetemplates) In-Reply-To: <7C5B6B0C-FEB9-44C5-8F4F-2E25F4194276@tobyinkster.co.uk> References: <7C5B6B0C-FEB9-44C5-8F4F-2E25F4194276@tobyinkster.co.uk> Message-ID: <28375968-1231629365-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-779472964-@bxe102.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Good catch. Please add a nested +1 to the issue with your name and I'll do the same. As far as a problem with the LinkedIn implementation, go ahead and briefly note the problem with a nested listitem under their entry in the implementations section: http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume#Implementations Thanks, Tantek -----Original Message----- From: Toby A Inkster Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:48:32 To: Subject: hResume
issue (was Re: [uf-discuss] MediaWiki hResume templates) Tantek wrote: > Could you add your specific documentation of this hResume issue to > the hResume issues page? > > http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-issues It's already on there (last item) - added by Steve Ganz in 2006. Which reminds me... linkedin.com has recently started to do really annoying things with their hCard titles. :-( -- Toby A Inkster _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From meitarm at gmail.com Tue Jan 13 00:48:48 2009 From: meitarm at gmail.com (Mr. Meitar Moscovitz) Date: Tue Jan 13 00:49:04 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mobile browser with support for microformats In-Reply-To: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> References: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <70E07CE1-1E02-4FCB-B99C-F6720D4511D5@gmail.com> On Jan 7, 2009, at 5:01 PM, Aleksander Kmetec wrote: > Hey, everyone! > > I was hoping you could give me some feedback on my proof-of-concept > mobile bowser which is called Mosembro. Hi Aleksander, Hearing about Mosembro is *the* reason I downloaded the Android SDK. ;) So at least in concept, my feedback is purely positive. I like this idea a lot. It's one I might call "brilliantly obvious in retrospect." (A compliment.) > It is meant to demonstrate how taking advantage of embedded semantic > metadata (in this case microformats) can help us build a more user- > friendly browser for mobile devices. Since mobile devices are much > more awkward to use than full size computers, even simple things > like automating a task which would otherwise require you to copy > some text from one app to another, can make a huge difference. > > You can have a look at it here: > http://lexandera.com/mosembro/ > > Regards, > Aleksander I'm curious, do you describe or document the microformat that Mosembro uses to provide its "consistent site-wide search" functionality anywhere? I'm having a look around and playing with Mosembro in Android's emulator now, but I can't seem to find mention of this idea anywhere on the Microformats wiki or the mailing list archives, and my Java knowledge is way too poor to efficiently go code diving into Mosembro's sources. I also tried to locate the address of the "Mosembro Demo Page" to see if I could view the source, but alas, I'm not seeing an option or that. (Note that it's very possible I'm simply overlooking something, as is this is the first time I've ever seen Google's Android interface.) Moreover, the idea of extracting a consistent search interface (perhaps with a standardized microformat) is appealing to me since many sites provide their own search forms but their locations and visual appearance varies wildly from site to site (and even between a single site's redesigns). On a mobile interface, it is often a nuisance to try and find the search functionality for each site. Therefore, a consistent UI presented by the user agent itself is preferable, as long as it can plug the entered text from the UI to the web site's own search field (which I am assuming is the point of what you describe possible in Mosembro, yes?). Has there been discussion about a search microformat for functionality such as described above before? If so, is someone able (and willing) to point me in that direction so I can read up? Thanks very much! Cheers, -Meitar Moscovitz Personal: http://maymay.net Professional: http://MeitarMoscovitz.com From zack.carter at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 15:10:06 2009 From: zack.carter at gmail.com (Zachary Carter) Date: Wed Jan 14 15:10:11 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mobile browser with support for microformats In-Reply-To: <70E07CE1-1E02-4FCB-B99C-F6720D4511D5@gmail.com> References: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> <70E07CE1-1E02-4FCB-B99C-F6720D4511D5@gmail.com> Message-ID: I just tried Mosembro out on my G1 and, while the browser is a bit quirky, the concept is executed really well. The user installable script idea reminds me of what Mozilla is doing with Ubiquity and their mouse only interface[1]. [1]: http://www.azarask.in/blog/post/can-ubiquity-be-used-only-with-the-mouse/ Best, Zach Carter http://zach.carter.name On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 3:48 AM, Mr. Meitar Moscovitz wrote: > On Jan 7, 2009, at 5:01 PM, Aleksander Kmetec wrote: > >> Hey, everyone! >> >> I was hoping you could give me some feedback on my proof-of-concept mobile >> bowser which is called Mosembro. > > Hi Aleksander, > > Hearing about Mosembro is *the* reason I downloaded the Android SDK. ;) So > at least in concept, my feedback is purely positive. I like this idea a lot. > It's one I might call "brilliantly obvious in retrospect." (A compliment.) > >> It is meant to demonstrate how taking advantage of embedded semantic >> metadata (in this case microformats) can help us build a more user-friendly >> browser for mobile devices. Since mobile devices are much more awkward to >> use than full size computers, even simple things like automating a task >> which would otherwise require you to copy some text from one app to another, >> can make a huge difference. >> >> You can have a look at it here: >> http://lexandera.com/mosembro/ >> >> Regards, >> Aleksander > > I'm curious, do you describe or document the microformat that Mosembro uses > to provide its "consistent site-wide search" functionality anywhere? I'm > having a look around and playing with Mosembro in Android's emulator now, > but I can't seem to find mention of this idea anywhere on the Microformats > wiki or the mailing list archives, and my Java knowledge is way too poor to > efficiently go code diving into Mosembro's sources. I also tried to locate > the address of the "Mosembro Demo Page" to see if I could view the source, > but alas, I'm not seeing an option or that. > > (Note that it's very possible I'm simply overlooking something, as is this > is the first time I've ever seen Google's Android interface.) > > Moreover, the idea of extracting a consistent search interface (perhaps with > a standardized microformat) is appealing to me since many sites provide > their own search forms but their locations and visual appearance varies > wildly from site to site (and even between a single site's redesigns). On a > mobile interface, it is often a nuisance to try and find the search > functionality for each site. Therefore, a consistent UI presented by the > user agent itself is preferable, as long as it can plug the entered text > from the UI to the web site's own search field (which I am assuming is the > point of what you describe possible in Mosembro, yes?). > > Has there been discussion about a search microformat for functionality such > as described above before? If so, is someone able (and willing) to point me > in that direction so I can read up? > > Thanks very much! > > Cheers, > -Meitar Moscovitz > Personal: http://maymay.net > Professional: http://MeitarMoscovitz.com > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > From codepo8 at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 15:21:47 2009 From: codepo8 at gmail.com (Christian Heilmann) Date: Wed Jan 14 15:21:54 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] YQL now supports microformats as a data source Message-ID: <496E738B.4030300@gmail.com> Hi there, happy to announce that YQL now supports microformats as a data table. This means you can get microformat data from web sites returned as JSON or XML and you have a SQL-style language to filter and collate: http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2009/01/yql_with_microformats.html What I now need is some good examples, I thought of a script to allow detection of hcard info to fill out forms automatically in straight JavaScript. any other good ideas? cheers Chris From tdrake at yahoo-inc.com Wed Jan 14 16:25:01 2009 From: tdrake at yahoo-inc.com (Ted Drake) Date: Wed Jan 14 16:25:05 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] YQL now supports microformats as a data source In-Reply-To: <496E738B.4030300@gmail.com> References: <496E738B.4030300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <023901c976a7$b4a29660$f172480a@ds.corp.yahoo.com> I'm a bit confused by the goal. I'm on site A. I want to use YQL to get the microformatted information from site B. What can I do on site A with that data? Is that what you are asking? Or site A has microformatted data, what can I use YQL to do with that data. Here's an idea. I have a web site: paris.insiderfood.com. I do a search for something like: http://paris.insidefood.com/chez+prosper.html The results listed from http://parisvegetarian.com have microformatted hcards. So, can I grab those hcard details and generate a link in the result that pops up a yahoo map? Here's another idea I go to a blog that has a blogroll marked up in xfn. Could I use YQL to follow those people and grab their information and create links to the twitter, flickr, hcard, etc details? This could be helpful as a firefox plugin to explore a blogger's contacts. Does that help? Ted -----Original Message----- From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org [mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Christian Heilmann Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:22 PM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: [uf-discuss] YQL now supports microformats as a data source Hi there, happy to announce that YQL now supports microformats as a data table. This means you can get microformat data from web sites returned as JSON or XML and you have a SQL-style language to filter and collate: http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2009/01/yql_with_microformats.html What I now need is some good examples, I thought of a script to allow detection of hcard info to fill out forms automatically in straight JavaScript. any other good ideas? cheers Chris _______________________________________________ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From danbri at danbri.org Thu Jan 15 02:09:38 2009 From: danbri at danbri.org (Dan Brickley) Date: Thu Jan 15 02:09:44 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] [Fwd: [diso-project] Re: W3C Workshop on the Future of Social Networking] Message-ID: <496F0B62.5040807@danbri.org> I know many FOAF and Microformats people had hoped to attend this W3C Workshop today/tommorrow in Barcelona, but couldn't attend for one reason or another. I'm in that unfortunate situation myself. Apparently there's twitter and streamed video though, see below. And Libby has posted short summaries of many of the papers, see http://planb.nicecupoftea.org/2009/01/14/w3c-workshop-on-the-future-of-social-networking/ Hope those of you who make the trip can blog/email some notes for the rest of us. And put in a word for the importance of any new W3C work supporting these kinds of remote collaboration issues. wishing I could be in Barcelona, Dan -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [diso-project] Re: W3C Workshop on the Future of Social Networking Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 00:48:32 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Sullivan Reply-To: diso-project@googlegroups.com To: DiSo Project I'm at the workshop today and tomorrow. You can watch the presentations online: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/w3c-workshop http://search.twitter.com/search?q=w3csn --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "DiSo Project" group. To post to this group, send email to diso-project@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to diso-project+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/diso-project?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From loertsch.thomas at guj.de Thu Jan 15 03:01:19 2009 From: loertsch.thomas at guj.de (Thomas Loertsch) Date: Thu Jan 15 03:01:30 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] title -> heading/label/caption/? Message-ID: hi, in hRecipe we use "recipe-title" to avoid the problems with the "title" tag. but this is ugly and it doesn't scale - it's not reusable in other microformats. therefor i consulted a thesaurus and filtered out the following alternatives: heading caption label since i'm not a native speaker i would like to get some advice on the subtle differences in meaning. from what i understand heading has a connotation of "layout", mixing style with structure, caption is more of a byline to something than the top or beginning of it, label is more attached to a thing, not so much an integral part of it. if all this is correct, then i would argue that "heading" would still be a good alternative to "recipe-title" and suitable for most occurrences of "titles", while "label" or "caption" could be viable alternatives to "title" in other cases. "heading" also has a semantic connection to "h1", "h2" etc, which may not be such a bad thing. any thoughts? thomas . Thomas L?rtsch Business Development G+J Exclusive&Living digital GmbH .. Stubbenhuk 5 20459 Hamburg ... eMail: loertsch.thomas@guj.de From kevinmarks at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 03:15:53 2009 From: kevinmarks at gmail.com (Kevin Marks) Date: Thu Jan 15 03:15:58 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] title -> heading/label/caption/? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73766b160901150315x604e3f5ei1c4750ad4d04ca89@mail.gmail.com> Have a look at http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-classes 'label' is used in hCard for unstructured addresses. could you re-use 'entry-title' from hAtom? On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Thomas Loertsch wrote: > > hi, > > in hRecipe we use "recipe-title" to avoid the problems with the "title" tag. > but this is ugly and it doesn't scale - it's not reusable in other > microformats. therefor i consulted a thesaurus and filtered out the > following alternatives: > > heading > caption > label > > > since i'm not a native speaker i would like to get some advice on the subtle > differences in meaning. from what i understand > > heading has a connotation of "layout", mixing style with structure, > caption is more of a byline to something than the top or beginning of it, > label is more attached to a thing, not so much an integral part of it. > > > if all this is correct, then i would argue that "heading" would still be a > good alternative to "recipe-title" and suitable for most occurrences of > "titles", while "label" or "caption" could be viable alternatives to "title" > in other cases. "heading" also has a semantic connection to "h1", "h2" etc, > which may not be such a bad thing. > > any thoughts? > thomas > > . > Thomas L?rtsch > Business Development > G+J Exclusive&Living digital GmbH > .. > Stubbenhuk 5 > 20459 Hamburg > ... > eMail: loertsch.thomas@guj.de > > > > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss From loertsch.thomas at guj.de Thu Jan 15 03:39:37 2009 From: loertsch.thomas at guj.de (Thomas Loertsch) Date: Thu Jan 15 03:39:47 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] title -> heading/label/caption/? In-Reply-To: <73766b160901150315x604e3f5ei1c4750ad4d04ca89@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 15.01.09 12:15, "Kevin Marks" wrote: > Have a look at http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-classes > > 'label' is used in hCard for unstructured addresses. ermm, silly me... so that's ruled out, but it wasn't my favorite anyway :-) > could you re-use 'entry-title' from hAtom? yeah, well, if it was a list of recipes that would make quite some sense. but "entry-title" in my feeling puts as much weight on "entry" (part of something bigger) as on "title". not ideal... i still think "heading" could be a good solution. > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Thomas Loertsch > wrote: >> >> hi, >> >> in hRecipe we use "recipe-title" to avoid the problems with the "title" tag. >> but this is ugly and it doesn't scale - it's not reusable in other >> microformats. therefor i consulted a thesaurus and filtered out the >> following alternatives: >> >> heading >> caption >> label >> >> >> since i'm not a native speaker i would like to get some advice on the subtle >> differences in meaning. from what i understand >> >> heading has a connotation of "layout", mixing style with structure, >> caption is more of a byline to something than the top or beginning of it, >> label is more attached to a thing, not so much an integral part of it. >> >> >> if all this is correct, then i would argue that "heading" would still be a >> good alternative to "recipe-title" and suitable for most occurrences of >> "titles", while "label" or "caption" could be viable alternatives to "title" >> in other cases. "heading" also has a semantic connection to "h1", "h2" etc, >> which may not be such a bad thing. >> >> any thoughts? >> thomas >> >> . >> Thomas L?rtsch >> Business Development >> G+J Exclusive&Living digital GmbH >> .. >> Stubbenhuk 5 >> 20459 Hamburg >> ... >> eMail: loertsch.thomas@guj.de >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microformats-discuss mailing list >> microformats-discuss@microformats.org >> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > microformats-discuss mailing list > microformats-discuss@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss . Thomas L?rtsch Business Development G+J Exclusive&Living digital GmbH .. Stubbenhuk 5 20459 Hamburg ... eMail: loertsch.thomas@guj.de From tantek at cs.stanford.edu Thu Jan 15 14:29:03 2009 From: tantek at cs.stanford.edu (=?UTF-8?Q?Tantek_=C3=87elik?=) Date: Thu Jan 15 14:29:05 2009 Subject: hRecipe issues (was Re: [uf-discuss] title -> heading/label/caption/?) Message-ID: <60cb038a0901151429v4a65b632ka66755eb9881f2ee@mail.gmail.com> >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Thomas Loertsch >> wrote: >>> >>> hi, >>> >>> in hRecipe we use "recipe-title" to avoid the problems with the "title" tag. >>> but this is ugly and it doesn't scale - it's not reusable in other >>> microformats. ... >>> any thoughts? Please capture issues regarding microformats on the respective *-issues wiki page rather than email. E.g. objections to / problems with "recipe-title" have been recorded here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hrecipe-issues On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:39 AM, Thomas Loertsch wrote: > On 15.01.09 12:15, "Kevin Marks" wrote: > >> Have a look at http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-classes >> >> 'label' is used in hCard for unstructured addresses. Please follow-up to issues raised in email by directing folks to raise issues on the respective *-issues wiki page rather than following-up to issues in email. Thanks, Tantek From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Thu Jan 15 14:31:05 2009 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Thu Jan 15 14:31:26 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] title -> heading/label/caption/? Message-ID: Kevin Marks wrote: > 'label' is used in hCard for unstructured addresses. > could you re-use 'entry-title' from hAtom? entry-title was my suggestion a while back (see http:// microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2008-April/ 001600.html) but some people pointed out that it might be problematic for people who want to produce an hAtom feed of recipes without using the same titles for the recipes and entries. -- Toby A Inkster From davidjanes at blogmatrix.com Thu Jan 15 14:44:38 2009 From: davidjanes at blogmatrix.com (David Janes) Date: Thu Jan 15 14:44:42 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] title -> heading/label/caption/? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21e523c20901151444h5113c9a4u288bd0d598870131@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Kevin Marks wrote: > >> 'label' is used in hCard for unstructured addresses. >> could you re-use 'entry-title' from hAtom? > > entry-title was my suggestion a while back (see > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2008-April/001600.html) > but some people pointed out that it might be problematic for people who want > to produce an hAtom feed of recipes without using the same titles for the > recipes and entries. > Just throwing out there that if new microformats used something like item [1] as a starting point (including using the class "item" in conjunction), they'd gain - a well evolved and understood terminology, so we wouldn't have the title debate on a fortnightly basis - opacity [2] to container microformats Regards, etc... [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/item [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/mfo -- David Janes Mercenary Programmer http://code.davidjanes.com From aleksander.kmetec at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 20:42:04 2009 From: aleksander.kmetec at gmail.com (Aleksander Kmetec) Date: Thu Jan 15 20:42:13 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mobile browser with support for microformats In-Reply-To: <70E07CE1-1E02-4FCB-B99C-F6720D4511D5@gmail.com> References: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> <70E07CE1-1E02-4FCB-B99C-F6720D4511D5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4970101C.5010407@gmail.com> Hey, sorry about the delay... it took me a couple of days to realize you also posted here, not just on my blog. Mr. Meitar Moscovitz wrote: > I'm curious, do you describe or document the microformat that Mosembro > uses to provide its "consistent site-wide search" functionality > anywhere? There's no official description of this microformat anywhere - it doesn't exist outside of the demo. The code which detects it looks for 3 things: - a form element with "site-search" in its class attribute - an input element which is located inside that form and has "site-search-query" in its class attribute - any element which is located inside that form and has "site-search-description" in its class attribute (The first two elements are required, but the third one is optional, since it's only used to specify the search dialog's title bar text.) > Mosembro's sources. I also tried to locate the address of the "Mosembro > Demo Page" to see if I could view the source, but alas, I'm not seeing > an option or that. It's hiding here: http://lexandera.com/mosembrodemo/ > Moreover, the idea of extracting a consistent search interface (perhaps > with a standardized microformat) is appealing to me since many sites > provide their own search forms but their locations and visual appearance > varies wildly from site to site Yeah, finding the search form can be a real problem, even though it's always located in the top right corner. Except when it's in the left sidebar. Or in the center, just below the header graphic. Or at the bottom of the right sidebar. Or hidden behind a link... And when you finally find it, it throws a " is not a valid email address" error back at you, because you what you just typed into is actually a mailing list subscription form, not a search form. > redesigns). On a mobile interface, it is often a nuisance to try and > find the search functionality for each site. Therefore, a consistent UI > presented by the user agent itself is preferable, as long as it can plug > the entered text from the UI to the web site's own search field (which I > am assuming is the point of what you describe possible in Mosembro, yes?). Yes, that's the point: presenting the user with a consistent search UI, which can always be found at the same place. :) Except the current implementation skips the "plug the entered text from the UI to the web site's own search field" part and submits the query directly to the site's search engine (location of which is specified by the search form's "action" parameter), bypassing the original search form. > Has there been discussion about a search microformat for functionality > such as described above before? If so, is someone able (and willing) to > point me in that direction so I can read up? No discussion that I would know of. But it certainly looks like we're moving towards one. I'll try to put together a basic proposal for the search microformat over the weekend; but I certainly won't mind if you beat me to it. :) Regards, Aleksander From aleksander.kmetec at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 20:42:28 2009 From: aleksander.kmetec at gmail.com (Aleksander Kmetec) Date: Thu Jan 15 20:42:33 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mobile browser with support for microformats In-Reply-To: References: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> <70E07CE1-1E02-4FCB-B99C-F6720D4511D5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49701034.3050800@gmail.com> Zachary Carter wrote: > I just tried Mosembro out on my G1 and, while the browser is a bit > quirky, the concept is executed really well. Thanks. It's nice to know it works on an actual device. :) > The user installable script idea reminds me of what Mozilla is doing > with Ubiquity and their mouse only interface[1]. Nice demo video. I really like those semi-transparent floating bubbles; although they probably wouldn't work well with a touch interface, since there's no "mouseover" event when you don't even have a mouse pointer. Regards, Aleksander From brian.suda at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 00:06:16 2009 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Fri Jan 16 00:06:24 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mobile browser with support for microformats In-Reply-To: <4970101C.5010407@gmail.com> References: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> <70E07CE1-1E02-4FCB-B99C-F6720D4511D5@gmail.com> <4970101C.5010407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780901160006o64c4cbb5tc0b650c7be35a48d@mail.gmail.com> On 1/16/09, Aleksander Kmetec wrote: > > Has there been discussion about a search microformat for functionality > such as described above before? If so, is someone able (and willing) to > point me in that direction so I can read up? > > > > No discussion that I would know of. But it certainly looks like we're > moving towards one. I'll try to put together a basic proposal for the search > microformat over the weekend; but I certainly won't mind if you beat me to > it. :) There was some discussion several years ago about mapping OpenSearch to microformats. Then the browser's internal search box could act like a search box for the site http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-August/005298.html If we wish to discuss new formats, we should move that discussion over to the -new list Thanks, -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From meitarm at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 06:22:57 2009 From: meitarm at gmail.com (Mr. Meitar Moscovitz) Date: Fri Jan 16 06:23:08 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Mobile browser with support for microformats In-Reply-To: <21e770780901160006o64c4cbb5tc0b650c7be35a48d@mail.gmail.com> References: <49644537.8060307@gmail.com> <70E07CE1-1E02-4FCB-B99C-F6720D4511D5@gmail.com> <4970101C.5010407@gmail.com> <21e770780901160006o64c4cbb5tc0b650c7be35a48d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6D26C934-73DE-4E58-A822-F3F4631DF7C8@gmail.com> On 1/16/09, Aleksander Kmetec wrote: >> Has there been discussion about a search microformat for >> functionality > such as described above before? If so, is someone able (and willing) > to > point me in that direction so I can read up? >> > > No discussion that I would know of. But it certainly looks like we're > moving towards one. I'll try to put together a basic proposal for > the search > microformat over the weekend; but I certainly won't mind if you beat > me to > it. :) Aleksander, I've never participated in the development of a microformat before so I went to go read up on the process on the wiki[0]. It directs me to email the -new list, as Brian did as well, so that's what I've done. (See below.) Would love to hear your thoughts, as well as others. I'll also throw out that I'm interested in seeing this through if it gains traction. On Jan 16, 2009, at 7:06 PM, Brian Suda wrote: > There was some discussion several years ago about mapping OpenSearch > to microformats. Then the browser's internal search box could act like > a search box for the site > http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-August/005298.html Thanks for this pointer! The OpenSearch and microformats effort seems like it had a much larger scope than what Aleksander has done with Mosembro, though?I'm thinking "simple problems first." > If we wish to discuss new formats, we should move that discussion over > to the -new list > > Thanks, > -brian No worries. I've done exactly that, so we can continue this discussion, if anyone is interested in doing so with me, over here: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2009-January/002007.html Cheers, -Meitar Moscovitz Personal: http://maymay.net Professional: http://MeitarMoscovitz.com From james at atomless.com Sat Jan 17 04:53:51 2009 From: james at atomless.com (James Tindall) Date: Sat Jan 17 04:53:55 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat for programming language reference? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4971D4DF.7080705@atomless.com> Hi all, I often need to jump between various programming/scripting languages and have recently been wondering if there exists a site that helps with this process by mapping the equivalent functions in the various languages. I'm yet to find such a site and have recently wondered about the feasibility of a microformat for marking up programming language references. I think it could really work for the high level scripting languages like python, php, javascript, actionscript, ruby, and perhaps even java, processing and pearl. Does such a standard already exist somewhere? If not how feasible do those on this list think it might be? James -- http://jamestindall.info/ From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk Sat Jan 17 08:24:16 2009 From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster) Date: Sat Jan 17 08:24:46 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat for programming language reference? Message-ID: Have you considered just using a simple table?
Concept PHP Perl
Regular expression match preg_match('/expression/', $string, $matches) $string =~ /expression/ (matches in $1, $2, etc)
Regular expression replace $string = preg_match('/expression/', $replacement, $string) $string =~ s/expression/replacement/;
Maybe with some class attributes on the elements. -- Toby A Inkster From meitarm at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 08:44:53 2009 From: meitarm at gmail.com (Mr. Meitar Moscovitz) Date: Sat Jan 17 08:45:15 2009 Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat for programming language reference? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CA3FA66-0B18-4571-8402-D537753C143A@gmail.com> On Jan 18, 2009, at 3:24 AM, Toby A Inkster wrote: > Maybe with some class attributes on the elements. I prefer to use a block like 
<!-- HTML code here -->
unless the code is inline within a paragraph already. However, I've also seen the above pattern with the class name on the 
 element  
instead of the  element, and I've seen this done without the  
 element at all. Not really sure which is "best," though the  
first seems the most straightforward to me.

My 2?.

-Meitar Moscovitz
Personal: http://maymay.net
Professional: http://MeitarMoscovitz.com
From james at atomless.com  Sat Jan 17 09:43:23 2009
From: james at atomless.com (James Tindall)
Date: Sat Jan 17 09:43:47 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat for programming language reference?
In-Reply-To: <1CA3FA66-0B18-4571-8402-D537753C143A@gmail.com>
References: 
	<1CA3FA66-0B18-4571-8402-D537753C143A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <497218BB.4050500@atomless.com>

I do use pre and code elements when marking up code in html but that's 
not really what I meant. What I mean is that when I look at pages like 
this:
http://processing.org/reference/index_ext.html
It leaves me wondering whether many of the other scripting languages 
like php, ruby, javascript, actionscript and python could each be 
visually displayed in a similar way and using standardised class names 
and markup structure for the methods and functions that are common 
throughout each language? A standardised markup format (uf) for this 
kind of programming language reference page would I think be quite useful.

James

Mr. Meitar Moscovitz wrote:
> On Jan 18, 2009, at 3:24 AM, Toby A Inkster wrote:
>
>> Maybe with some class attributes on the  elements.
>
> I prefer to use a block like
>
> 
<!-- HTML code here -->

>
> unless the code is inline within a paragraph already. However, I've 
> also seen the above pattern with the class name on the 
 element 
> instead of the  element, and I've seen this done without the 
>  element at all. Not really sure which is "best," though the 
> first seems the most straightforward to me.
>
> My 2?.
>
> -Meitar Moscovitz
> Personal: http://maymay.net
> Professional: http://MeitarMoscovitz.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>

-- 

-----------------------------------------

James Tindall

http://www.atomless.com/

T : +44(0)1305 250 377
M : +44(0)7971 012 032
F : +44(0)1305 250 377

-----------------------------------------

From knownasilya at gmail.com  Sat Jan 17 21:30:57 2009
From: knownasilya at gmail.com (Ilya Radchenko)
Date: Sat Jan 17 21:31:02 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat for programming language reference?
In-Reply-To: <497218BB.4050500@atomless.com>
References: 
	<1CA3FA66-0B18-4571-8402-D537753C143A@gmail.com>
	<497218BB.4050500@atomless.com>
Message-ID: 

It seems that for java, php, python, and ruby that list would be huge.
But it's not impossible, just need someone with a passion to write
something like that. Would be nice to see, since I too have to work
with a lot of different scripting/oo languages.

~Ilya

On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 12:43 PM, James Tindall  wrote:
>
> I do use pre and code elements when marking up code in html but that's not really what I meant. What I mean is that when I look at pages like this:
> http://processing.org/reference/index_ext.html
> It leaves me wondering whether many of the other scripting languages like php, ruby, javascript, actionscript and python could each be visually displayed in a similar way and using standardised class names and markup structure for the methods and functions that are common throughout each language? A standardised markup format (uf) for this kind of programming language reference page would I think be quite useful.
>
> James
>
> Mr. Meitar Moscovitz wrote:
>>
>> On Jan 18, 2009, at 3:24 AM, Toby A Inkster wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe with some class attributes on the  elements.
>>
>> I prefer to use a block like
>>
>> 
<!-- HTML code here -->

>>
>> unless the code is inline within a paragraph already. However, I've also seen the above pattern with the class name on the 
 element instead of the  element, and I've seen this done without the  element at all. Not really sure which is "best," though the first seems the most straightforward to me.
>>
>> My 2?.
>>
>> -Meitar Moscovitz
>> Personal: http://maymay.net
>> Professional: http://MeitarMoscovitz.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>>
>
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> James Tindall
>
> http://www.atomless.com/
>
> T : +44(0)1305 250 377
> M : +44(0)7971 012 032
> F : +44(0)1305 250 377
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss



--
Portfolio | http://burstcreations.com

From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com  Sun Jan 18 03:01:09 2009
From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis)
Date: Sun Jan 18 03:07:55 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat for programming language reference?
In-Reply-To: <497218BB.4050500@atomless.com>
References: 	<1CA3FA66-0B18-4571-8402-D537753C143A@gmail.com>
	<497218BB.4050500@atomless.com>
Message-ID: <49730BF5.1050308@googlemail.com>

On 17/1/09 17:43, James Tindall wrote:
> It leaves me wondering whether many of the other scripting languages
> like php, ruby, javascript, actionscript and python could each be
> visually displayed in a similar way and using standardised class names
> and markup structure for the methods and functions that are common
> throughout each language?

I'm not sure precisely what information you're looking to extract from 
programming language documentation.

Perhaps an example would help. What information you'd want to extract 
from each of these pages?

http://uk3.php.net/manual/fr/function.implode.php

http://uk3.php.net/manual/fr/language.types.string.php

http://uk2.php.net/manual/fr/class.domdocument.php

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
From james at atomless.com  Sun Jan 18 06:56:32 2009
From: james at atomless.com (James Tindall)
Date: Sun Jan 18 06:56:47 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat for programming language reference?
In-Reply-To: <49730BF5.1050308@googlemail.com>
References: 	<1CA3FA66-0B18-4571-8402-D537753C143A@gmail.com>	<497218BB.4050500@atomless.com>
	<49730BF5.1050308@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <49734320.9090805@atomless.com>

Hi Ben,

I agree with Ilya that for some of the popular scripting languages the 
task would be huge. But such an effort would not necessarily need to 
cover all of the idiosyncrasies at the dark edges of each of these 
languages. To be useful it need only map the common core, most often 
used functions like those dealing with strings, text, arrays and the 
more common math methods.

Anyway, I'm just thinking aloud really but to aid the process of 
switching between languages, a consistent, standard and semantic markup 
format and the resulting consistency in presentation would surely be a 
good thing?

James

Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:
> On 17/1/09 17:43, James Tindall wrote:
>> It leaves me wondering whether many of the other scripting languages
>> like php, ruby, javascript, actionscript and python could each be
>> visually displayed in a similar way and using standardised class names
>> and markup structure for the methods and functions that are common
>> throughout each language?
>
> I'm not sure precisely what information you're looking to extract from 
> programming language documentation.
>
> Perhaps an example would help. What information you'd want to extract 
> from each of these pages?
>
> http://uk3.php.net/manual/fr/function.implode.php
>
> http://uk3.php.net/manual/fr/language.types.string.php
>
> http://uk2.php.net/manual/fr/class.domdocument.php
>
> -- 
> Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>

-- 

-----------------------------------------

James Tindall

http://www.atomless.com/

T : +44(0)1305 250 377
M : +44(0)7971 012 032
F : +44(0)1305 250 377

-----------------------------------------

From scott at randomchaos.com  Sun Jan 18 11:22:07 2009
From: scott at randomchaos.com (Scott Reynen)
Date: Sun Jan 18 11:22:11 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] Microformat for programming language reference?
In-Reply-To: <49734320.9090805@atomless.com>
References: 	<1CA3FA66-0B18-4571-8402-D537753C143A@gmail.com>	<497218BB.4050500@atomless.com>
	<49730BF5.1050308@googlemail.com> <49734320.9090805@atomless.com>
Message-ID: <65E9CBA7-8E4D-42BA-A49A-E4DF66D52B3F@randomchaos.com>

On [Jan 18], at [ Jan 18] 7:56 , James Tindall wrote:

> Anyway, I'm just thinking aloud really but to aid the process of  
> switching between languages, a consistent, standard and semantic  
> markup format and the resulting consistency in presentation would  
> surely be a good thing?


Discussion of potential new microformats, even thinking aloud, should  
be moved to the -new list:

http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new/

Peace,
Scott

From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Mon Jan 19 18:13:15 2009
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Mon Jan 19 18:13:20 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] Value-Excerption extension test
Message-ID: <1E9FD1E6-3C87-4927-913F-013837DCB425@ben-ward.co.uk>

Hi everyone,



It's been a little while since we last spoke about this, but I've been  
hacking away the wiki for the past month trying to put together the  
next stage of work on speccing the value-excerption-pattern.



I'm focused still on the ?parsing titles out of empty elements? to  
handle internationalization of enumerations, and undesired machine- 
data in dates and the like.



The test is documented in full here, complete with introduction,  
sample tests, pattern documentation and so on. I?ve gone out of my  
way to try and ensure this is the only wiki page you need to get up to  
speed on this mark-up pattern, justification and parsing rules, and  
the tests of course. I want it to be as accessible as possible to  
everyone, rather than needing to cross-reference multiple pages:



   ? http://microformats.org/wiki/value-excerption-value-title-test



If you think you can help out with a little bit of time to run some  
tests, I for one would be tremendously grateful.



The wiki page also provides you links to the related brainstorm content.



Thanks,



Ben
From loertsch.thomas at guj.de  Tue Jan 20 06:00:37 2009
From: loertsch.thomas at guj.de (Thomas Loertsch)
Date: Tue Jan 20 06:01:04 2009
Subject: hRecipe issues (was Re: [uf-discuss] title -> 
	heading/label/caption/?)
In-Reply-To: <60cb038a0901151429v4a65b632ka66755eb9881f2ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: 




On 15.01.09 23:29, "Tantek ?elik"  wrote:

>>> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Thomas Loertsch 
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> hi,
>>>> 
>>>> in hRecipe we use "recipe-title" to avoid the problems with the "title"
>>>> tag.
>>>> but this is ugly and it doesn't scale - it's not reusable in other
>>>> microformats.
> ...
>>>> any thoughts?
> 
> Please capture issues regarding microformats on the respective
> *-issues wiki page rather than email.
> 
> E.g. objections to / problems with "recipe-title" have been recorded here:
> 
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hrecipe-issues

the problem with 'title' is a problem of all microformats that use/need
soemthing like a label/title/heading/youProbablyKnowWhatImean so I figure
this list is the right place. that right?

by the way I didn't get an answer to my original question: since i'm not a
native speaker i would like to get some advice on the subtle differences in
meaning. from what i understand

heading   has a connotation of "layout", mixing style with structure,
caption   is more of a byline to something than the top or beginning of it,
label     is more attached to a thing, not so much an integral part of it.

would be nice to get some help
thomas



.
Thomas L?rtsch
Business Development
G+J Exclusive&Living digital GmbH
..
Stubbenhuk 5
20459 Hamburg
...
eMail: loertsch.thomas@guj.de




From meitarm at gmail.com  Tue Jan 20 06:32:28 2009
From: meitarm at gmail.com (Mr. Meitar Moscovitz)
Date: Tue Jan 20 06:33:02 2009
Subject: hRecipe issues (was Re: [uf-discuss] title ->
	heading/label/caption/?)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <8DF76BCD-FD8B-4491-B6B7-06E2D061EB92@gmail.com>

Thought I'd throw in my native-English-speaker's 2? to help you out:

On Jan 21, 2009, at 1:00 AM, Thomas Loertsch wrote:

> by the way I didn't get an answer to my original question: since i'm  
> not a
> native speaker i would like to get some advice on the subtle  
> differences in
> meaning. from what i understand
>
> heading   has a connotation of "layout", mixing style with structure,

Close, but not exactly. Heading is more about prominence or importance  
more than it is about layout. Headings are often styled specially  
because of their important, but the semantic meaning has to do with  
how heavily weighted the content should be.

> caption   is more of a byline to something than the top or beginning  
> of it,

For the most part, yes. It's specifically used to provide brief  
explanations or supplemental (additional) information to a particular  
piece of content. It's specifically not given the importance that  
headings are, however.

> label     is more attached to a thing, not so much an integral part  
> of it.

Actually, no. This is closer to the definition of a caption than a  
label. A label is more commonly used to refer to something that is  
required for the comprehension of the thing it is attached to, whereas  
a caption is typically deemed more acceptable to leave out.

> would be nice to get some help
> thomas

Hope this helps,
-Meitar Moscovitz
Personal: http://maymay.net
Professional: http://MeitarMoscovitz.com


From Jay.Myers at bestbuy.com  Thu Jan 22 13:54:38 2009
From: Jay.Myers at bestbuy.com (Myers, Jay)
Date: Thu Jan 22 13:54:53 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] hProduct draft now available
In-Reply-To: <494825CF.20307@digitalbazaar.com>
References: <0A55472BC29958468426825844F9F22E06598712@dsp63mail.na.bestbuy.com>
	<494825CF.20307@digitalbazaar.com>
Message-ID: <0A55472BC29958468426825844F9F22E065987BC@dsp63mail.na.bestbuy.com>

Hi Manu and fellow Microformateers,

Per your suggestion, I have extracted 40 examples from my offline
research and added them to the wiki to give clarification to the terms
selected for the hProduct draft:

http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct-examples#Live_Product_Examples

Also note there is additional analysis of these example sites with a
breakdown of their frequency of use following the site list.

I hope this spurs additional suggestions and improvements to the draft.
Please let me know if you have additional questions or thoughts!

Thanks,

Jay


Jay Myers
Lead Web Development Engineer
Online Solutions, BestBuy.com
(twitter) @jaymyers
(blog) http://jay.beweep.com


-----Original Message-----
From: microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org
[mailto:microformats-discuss-bounces@microformats.org] On Behalf Of Manu
Sporny
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:04 PM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hProduct draft now available

Myers, Jay wrote:
> After several months of diligent work, I'm happy to announce the draft
> spec of the hProduct microformat, linked from the front page of the
> wiki. I look forward to your constructive feedback in order to better
> the format for eventual adoption. 

Hi Jay,

Glad to see that you have decided to take the lead on moving the
hProduct uf forward :)

I haven't been following the hProduct discussion that closely and this
was really the first time I took a look at the draft. I'd like to draw
your attention to a particular Microformat Process issue that you may or
may not know about...

> As per the process, we have included
> appropriate wiki pages for issues, faqs and examples. 

The hProduct examples page[1], including all example pages that it links
to[2][3], include around 11 example sites, with no mention to the number
of sites that were analyzed. One of the first steps that should be
completed before a Draft is proposed is extensive analysis of existing
websites providing products.

To put hProduct's 11 examples into perspective, hAudio had close to 84
examples for the online music store section alone. If you have the
analysis data that led to the current version of hProduct, please put it
on the wiki. We can't know if the vocabulary terms are a good choice
unless we have the data to back up the draft.

For example, here's the analysis of terms utilized in audio sites:

http://microformats.org/wiki/audio-info-examples#Analysis_of_Music_Servi
ces

Is there an equivalent for hProduct? If not, is there a full set of
analysis data that backs up the vocabulary generated for hProduct?

-- manu

[1]http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct-examples
[2]http://microformats.org/wiki/product-examples
[3]http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-extended-examples
[4]http://microformats.org/wiki/audio-info-examples

-- 
Manu Sporny
President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.

blog: POSIX Threads Don't Scale Past 100K Concurrent Web Requests
http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2008/09/30/scaling-webservices-part-1

blog: Fibers are the Future: Scaling Past 100K Concurrent Requests
http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2008/10/21/scaling-webservices-part-2
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From andr3.pt at gmail.com  Fri Jan 23 12:18:19 2009
From: andr3.pt at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Lu=EDs?=)
Date: Fri Jan 23 12:26:03 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] Bioformats - microformats for biology
Message-ID: 

http://bioformats.org/

Why is this being developed outside of this community? Has anyone
heard of this before and/or have contacted the founders of this
project?

I guess they should read the http://microformats.org/wiki/poshformats
page... I see no documentation of discussion nor any study of examples
in the wild.

Bottom line is.. should we care about this? Try to invite them to join
the community and discuss the pros and cons of their proposals? Or
just leave them be?

Cheers,
Andr? Lu?s

From cbare at systemsbiology.org  Fri Jan 23 14:14:11 2009
From: cbare at systemsbiology.org (Christopher Bare)
Date: Fri Jan 23 14:14:18 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] Bioformats - microformats for biology
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

Hi all,

I don't speak for the researchers behind bioformats, but as someone
interested in using microformats (or what you call POSH formats for
that matter) in the field of bioinformatics.

First, I'd like to see efforts such as bioformats.org encouraged.
Bioinformatics is a field with tons of data on the web and exactly the
kind of semantic barriers that microformats can help overcome.
Development of microformats for niche areas like bioinformatics and
its various subdisciplines requires lots of input from domain experts,
and probably could benefit from experiences with more general
microformats as well. Maybe, bioformats.org is a place to bring that
knowledge together.

BTW, I created my own semantic HTML "microformat" (or POSH if you
prefer) (search for "gaggle microformat", comments welcome) , which I
consider to be merely a proposal, a demonstration of some of the
potential of microformats, and a starting point for further
discussion. I imagine the bioformats.org effort is conceived in a
similar spirit.

So, please do make contact and start a constructive discussion. Thanks,

-Christopher Bare




On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Andr? Lu?s  wrote:
> http://bioformats.org/
>
> Why is this being developed outside of this community? Has anyone
> heard of this before and/or have contacted the founders of this
> project?
>
> I guess they should read the http://microformats.org/wiki/poshformats
> page... I see no documentation of discussion nor any study of examples
> in the wild.
>
> Bottom line is.. should we care about this? Try to invite them to join
> the community and discuss the pros and cons of their proposals? Or
> just leave them be?
>
> Cheers,
> Andr? Lu?s
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>

From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Fri Jan 23 15:49:00 2009
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (lists@ben-ward.co.uk)
Date: Fri Jan 23 19:26:02 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] Bioformats - microformats for biology
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <1232754540.10778.1296454161@webmail.messagingengine.com>


On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:18:19 +0000, "Andr? Lu?s" 
said:

> Why is this being developed outside of this community? Has anyone
> heard of this before and/or have contacted the founders of this
> project?

This community very intentionally doesn't try create specifications for
everything. Previous pure-science efforts such as species died because
it fell way outside the area of active interest of most of this
community's participants. People are volunteers, their time is precious
and when you choose what you're going to contribute too, you're not
going to choose a subject matter you're not interested in. As such,
communities of different demographics and core interest are inevitable.
Microformats.org probably has a very social-web and mass-publishing
bias, their group will have different goals.

Now, I would say that I stand by the idea that our development process
would aid anyone in producing better quality formats in the end, but we
mustn't forget that microformats.org doesn't ?own? the class
attribute. If someone doesn't like how we work, or doesn't want to
integrate a complex alien subject matter into our community that's their
right.

Now, the one notable issue here is that ?bioformats? are *not*
microformats as they claim. Otherwise, what they do is up to them. I
personally don't know anyone involved. If anyone does and wants to make
contact on behalf of the community to ask clarification on their use of
?microformats? that would be appreciated.

Oh, and as an aside, this ?poshformats? thing will never catch on.
End of the day, we're all making patterns of HTML, no need to apply
silly branding. I'm not sure the concept should be presented like this
on the wiki, but that's a job for a less busy day.

Ben

> I guess they should read the http://microformats.org/wiki/poshformats
> page... I see no documentation of discussion nor any study of examples
> in the wild.
> 
> Bottom line is.. should we care about this? Try to invite them to join
> the community and discuss the pros and cons of their proposals? Or
> just leave them be?
> 
> Cheers,
> Andr? Lu?s
> 
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

From mail at tobyinkster.co.uk  Sat Jan 24 02:16:06 2009
From: mail at tobyinkster.co.uk (Toby A Inkster)
Date: Sat Jan 24 07:01:56 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] Bioformats - microformats for biology
Message-ID: 

Ben Ward wrote:

> This community very intentionally doesn't try create specifications  
> for
> everything. Previous pure-science efforts such as species died because
> it fell way outside the area of active interest of most of this
> community's participants.

Not dead, only resting. (Pining for the fjords perhaps.) There are  
already two broadly interoperable implementations, but things have  
slowed down since as the proposal's main contributor has been banned  
from microformats.org. I expect that towards the end of this year  
we'll see a lot more work on the species proposal. It is already  
being used (on a small scale) in the wild.

-- 
Toby A Inkster





From msporny at digitalbazaar.com  Sat Jan 24 08:18:43 2009
From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny)
Date: Sat Jan 24 09:31:39 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] Bioformats - microformats for biology
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <497B3F63.4080000@digitalbazaar.com>

Andr? Lu?s wrote:
> http://bioformats.org/
> 
> Why is this being developed outside of this community?

Possibly because they don't quite understand how the Microformats
Process works. I know our first impression was that we didn't need to
perform any sort of centralized development through the Microformats
community. We believed that Microformats could be developed by anybody
on the web and there was no "stamp of approval" necessary to call what
you were doing a "Microformat". At first blush, it wasn't clear that
there was a process behind what this community does...

> Has anyone heard of this before and/or have contacted the 
> founders of this project?

I've notified them of this thread.

> Bottom line is.. should we care about this? 

Yes, we should. They have demonstrated buy-in to the semantic web at
some level, interest in Microformats, the ability to do some work and
publish in a way that is open, and they're backed by an institute -
which means that probably have more time and interest than most to work
on this stuff.

> Try to invite them to join the community and discuss the pros 
> and cons of their proposals? Or just leave them be?

It would be a mistake to not invite them to join and let them decide if
this community is the best avenue forward. We shouldn't assume what the
interests of this community are - this mailing list has over 1,000
readers and all you really need is 2-3 highly motivated individuals to
push some of these initiatives forward.

-- manu

-- 
Manu Sporny
President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
blog: Bitmunk 3.1 Website Launch
http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2009/01/16/bitmunk-3-1-website-launch
From msporny at digitalbazaar.com  Sat Jan 24 08:49:51 2009
From: msporny at digitalbazaar.com (Manu Sporny)
Date: Sat Jan 24 09:31:40 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] Bioformats - microformats for biology
In-Reply-To: <1232754540.10778.1296454161@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: 
	<1232754540.10778.1296454161@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <497B46AF.4070904@digitalbazaar.com>

lists@ben-ward.co.uk wrote:
> This community very intentionally doesn't try create specifications for
> everything. Previous pure-science efforts such as species died because
> it fell way outside the area of active interest of most of this
> community's participants. 

I don't think that's the defining reason (Andy's banning, as Toby
stated, is probably the primary reason that the species uF is currently
not under development).

While I do agree that it's important that this community is careful
about what it works on, we shouldn't be exclusive and we shouldn't
assume that we know where certain community members want to focus their
attention. If a couple of people want to come into the Microformats
community to develop their vocabularies, we shouldn't say that there
isn't a place for them.

I, for one, would be interested to see how a bioformats discussion would
evolve *ba-dum-bum* =P. We're talking about the bits and pieces that
make us who we are! Allowing us to identify and process that information
could help us better understand how we're connected to each other as a
species. That seems like a fairly noble endeavor.

Ever played around with 23andme.com[1]? Being able to mark up your
personal genome on 23andme and have the browser cross-link against
SNPedia[2] automatically would be really awesome.

In short, we could help them work through some of the more subtle
language and vocabulary issues while helping an initiative that could
very well benefit the human condition. The discussion may come to
nothing, but let's give it a chance before shutting it down prematurely.

-- manu

[1] https://www.23andme.com/about/
[1] http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/SNPedia

-- 
Manu Sporny
President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
blog: Bitmunk 3.1 Website Launch
http://blog.digitalbazaar.com/2009/01/16/bitmunk-3-1-website-launch
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Sat Jan 24 20:26:30 2009
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Sat Jan 24 20:26:37 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] Bioformats - microformats for biology
In-Reply-To: <497B46AF.4070904@digitalbazaar.com>
References: 
	<1232754540.10778.1296454161@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<497B46AF.4070904@digitalbazaar.com>
Message-ID: 

On 24 Jan 2009, at 08:49, Manu Sporny wrote:

> lists@ben-ward.co.uk wrote:
>> This community very intentionally doesn't try create specifications  
>> for
>> everything. Previous pure-science efforts such as species died  
>> because
>> it fell way outside the area of active interest of most of this
>> community's participants.

Apologies to anyone still working and implementing species work. I'd  
underestimated the traction. My point about collaborative interest  
being an important part of a microformat developer stands, but clearly  
my example was wrong. Sorry about that.

> While I do agree that it's important that this community is careful
> about what it works on, we shouldn't be exclusive and we shouldn't
> assume that we know where certain community members want to focus  
> their
> attention. If a couple of people want to come into the Microformats
> community to develop their vocabularies, we shouldn't say that there
> isn't a place for them.

Absolutely *anyone* should be welcome to work within the process of  
this community on use its resources (both people and tools) to support  
their work. But, in being welcoming we mustn't be closed to the idea  
that some groups or subject matter won't fit with us and could be more  
successfully developed in a different manner. We share the class  
attribute, and we are but one citizen in HTML semantics.

> I, for one, would be interested to see how a bioformats discussion  
> would
> evolve *ba-dum-bum* =P

FNAH!

Ahem, yes: I'd be interested to read along with it and see the work  
happen here, for sure. (Aside: Personally I'd have nothing to  
contribute until later in the process when they reach the point of  
wanting peer review from the POV of it being a ?microformat?, and so  
on, rather than the actual semantics expressed in it, but I would be  
prepared to offer that sort of input to as many specs as I can afford  
the time to assist.)

Ben
From lists at ben-ward.co.uk  Mon Jan 26 13:23:09 2009
From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward)
Date: Mon Jan 26 13:23:14 2009
Subject: [uf-discuss] 2009
Message-ID: <7CFC810C-F7CE-4DA0-AC27-FF360F16AE28@ben-ward.co.uk>

So, I went and blogged my vision, thoughts and spontaneous musings  
regarding the microformats community, microformats and the work I'd  
like to do over the next 12 months. http://ben-ward.co.uk/blog/microformat-2009/

I'd like to encourage you all to write up your own outlooks and vision  
for the year (or link to any you've already written) and I'll throw  
them together on a blog post on microformats.org. Write them on your  
own personal blogs, of if you don't have a blog, create a page under  
your User:You section of the wiki (e.g. `http://microformats.org/wiki/User:BenWard/microformats-2009 
`).

Regards,

B