From thomasyde at yahoo.dk Thu Jun 5 06:17:34 2008 From: thomasyde at yahoo.dk (Thomas Yde) Date: Thu Jun 5 06:18:29 2008 Subject: [uf-new] Recipe proposal Message-ID: <0541E04B-AF9A-4A1D-A030-ED090CEF46BF@yahoo.dk> As we seem to have a pretty good idea about what's going to be included in the Recipe Microformat, I have posted a proposed schema on the wiki. http://microformats.org/wiki/recipe-brainstorming#Schema_proposal Please provide as much feedback as possible! Personally, I' m beginning to think reusing class names from hAtom (discussed here: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats- new/2008-April/001600.html) is a poor idea for the following reasons: - This is not a pattern that we've used in other Microformats which are just as likely to be used as feed entries (e.g. hReview). - What if i don't want to mark up the recipe as an entry but just as a... recipe? Wouldn't it be semantically wrong to mark up the title as an entry-title when it actually isn't? - What's wront with
? I therefore suggest that we change entry-title to title and entry- summary to summary. -- Thomas From lists at ben-ward.co.uk Thu Jun 5 06:53:59 2008 From: lists at ben-ward.co.uk (Ben Ward) Date: Thu Jun 5 06:54:04 2008 Subject: [uf-new] Recipe proposal In-Reply-To: <0541E04B-AF9A-4A1D-A030-ED090CEF46BF@yahoo.dk> References: <0541E04B-AF9A-4A1D-A030-ED090CEF46BF@yahoo.dk> Message-ID: <77821377-3E0C-41A6-A949-969AE446636C@ben-ward.co.uk> On 5 Jun 2008, at 14:17, Thomas Yde wrote: > I therefore suggest that we change entry-title to title and entry- > summary to summary. We've had issues with ?title? before, as it is already defined for a different purpose (effectively ?job-title?) in hCard. Using it in a more general way that would allow it to be ?entity-title? or ?object- title? as well would require redefining it, and there's been a lot of heated disagreement about doing that previously. Changing ?entry-summary? to ?summary? causes a similar clash of semantics, since ?summary? is used in hCalendar/Review/Listing in more of a titular manner. I'm not sure about basing Recipe off hAtom semantics; I need to think more about the situations where you would be using both at the same time to see if that would cause conflicts. B From supercanadian at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 09:34:05 2008 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Thu Jun 5 09:34:08 2008 Subject: [uf-new] Recipe proposal In-Reply-To: <0541E04B-AF9A-4A1D-A030-ED090CEF46BF@yahoo.dk> References: <0541E04B-AF9A-4A1D-A030-ED090CEF46BF@yahoo.dk> Message-ID: <84ce626f0806050934l77977e24gfb21b1d8f2500c13@mail.gmail.com> Hello Thomas, On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 6:17 AM, Thomas Yde wrote: > > As we seem to have a pretty good idea about what's going to be included in the Recipe Microformat, I have posted a proposed schema on the wiki. > > http://microformats.org/wiki/recipe-brainstorming#Schema_proposal > > Please provide as much feedback as possible! Assuming I'm reading the it right.... I don't think
    or
      should be required to use for either the ingredients or the instructions. For styling or formating reasons, people may not want to confine the ingredients or the instructions to a single HTML list. So, for example, the ingredient section on this page... http://changelog.ca/topic/Crepes ... has the following markup...

      3 eggs
      ½ litre of Milk
      200 grams of white flour
      A little bit of Salt
      1 to 2 tea spoons of (cooking) oil

      This then could be marked up with hRecipe (without using
        or
          ) as...

          3 eggs
          ½ litre of Milk
          200 grams of white flour
          A little bit of Salt
          1 to 2 tea spoons of (cooking) oil

          Some things to note.... - The use of the HTML entity ½ to mean "one half" -- to mean 1/2. There's other HTML entities that are similar to this too. Like ¼ and ¾ - The user of the imprecise quantity of "a little bit" If one looks at the instructions though, one will notice that there are some optional ingredients in there. The last 2 paragraphs of the ingredients has...

          You can serve it with Whipped Cream and fruit,... Powdered Sugar and fruit,... or even with cooked meat.

          (Strawberries are a common fruit to use.)

          It would make sense to be able to have the be marked up as optional ingredients. So (in addition to that other marking-up I did before) how would this get marked up?.... Although I'm not if this is as per your schema proposal, maybe one could do something like...

          You can serve it with Whipped Cream and fruit,... Powdered Sugar and fruit,... or even with cooked meat.

          (Strawberries are a common fruit to use.)

          I've used 3 classes on each of those optional ingredients... class="ingredient optional item". Does that work with your schema proposal? Also... what classes are suppose to be used to mark up things instructions for the recipe? (I'm not quite sure from the schema proposal.) Do I just wrap all 5 paragraphs of the instructions in a class-method? I.e., something like this?...

          ...

          ...

          ...

          And... I'd also suggest that for the photo, that the "photo" class not necessarily have to be put on the tag. So that, although you could do... I'd suggest you also allow for... Some software may not allow authors to actually create the tag themselves, because they have an automated way of doing it, but may allow you to put tags around it, like a with class-photo. I'd also suggest that instead of using "entry-title" and "entry-summary" that "recipe-title" and "recipe-summary" be used instead, so that the semantics of each is free to vary on their own. (You could always do stuff like class="recipe-title entry-title" if you want to throw hAtom markup in there too.) One further things regarding ingredients. On this page... http://changelog.ca/topic/Nan-e%20Nokhodchi ... there is the ingredient...
          4 tablespoons of unsalted, slivered Pistachios for garnish

          Is the item here just the "Pistachios"? Or is it the "unsalted, slivered Pistachios"? Also, another ingredient says...
          4 ½ cups of fine, roasted Chick-Pea Flour, sifted 3 times
          Does the "sifted 3 times" get any kind of special treatment? (Is that an example of where class-note should be used?) Here's the examples, for your list (if you want them)... http://changelog.ca/topic/Crepes http://changelog.ca/topic/Nan-e%20Nokhodchi See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. http://ChangeLog.ca/ From scott at makedatamakesense.com Fri Jun 6 09:54:20 2008 From: scott at makedatamakesense.com (Scott Reynen) Date: Fri Jun 6 09:54:24 2008 Subject: [uf-new] Recipe proposal In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0806050934l77977e24gfb21b1d8f2500c13@mail.gmail.com> References: <0541E04B-AF9A-4A1D-A030-ED090CEF46BF@yahoo.dk> <84ce626f0806050934l77977e24gfb21b1d8f2500c13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <746913C8-4419-4259-AAFA-5A1992D4003E@makedatamakesense.com> On [Jun 5], at [ Jun 5] 10:34 , Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: > It would make sense to be able to have the be marked up as optional > ingredients. I believe there's been some discussion of this previously and it's not entirely straight-forward how to do this. I'd suggest we put this off for a future revision. It seems to me a recipe microformat could be useful without this information made machine-readable, and we should start as simple as possible. -- Scott Reynen MakeDataMakeSense.com From thomasyde at yahoo.dk Sun Jun 8 11:42:44 2008 From: thomasyde at yahoo.dk (Thomas Yde) Date: Sun Jun 8 11:42:55 2008 Subject: [uf-new] Recipe proposal In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0806050934l77977e24gfb21b1d8f2500c13@mail.gmail.com> References: <0541E04B-AF9A-4A1D-A030-ED090CEF46BF@yahoo.dk> <84ce626f0806050934l77977e24gfb21b1d8f2500c13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <76751A0C-F40D-412B-B8D4-B84A4DFF5398@yahoo.dk> On Jun 5, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: > Assuming I'm reading the it right.... > > I don't think
            or
              should be required to use for either the > ingredients or the instructions. No,
                or
                  should not be required for ingredients or method and I don't think there's anything in the current schema proposal that suggests this. > For styling or formating reasons, people may not want to confine the > ingredients or the instructions to a single HTML list. > > So, for example, the ingredient section on this page... > > http://changelog.ca/topic/Crepes > > ... has the following markup... > >

                  > 3 eggs >
                  > ½ litre of Milk >
                  > 200 grams of white flour >
                  > A little bit of Salt >
                  > 1 to 2 tea spoons of (cooking) oil >

                  > > This then could be marked up with hRecipe (without using
                    or >
                      ) as... > >

                      > 3 class="item">eggs >
                      > ½ > litre of href="Milk">Milk >
                      > 200 grams > of white flour >
                      > A little > bit of Salt >
                      > 1 to 2 tea > spoons of (cooking) oil >

                      That's what I'd imagined too. > Some things to note.... > > - The use of the HTML entity ½ to mean "one half" -- to mean > 1/2. There's other HTML entities that are similar to this too. Like > ¼ and ¾ > - The user of the imprecise quantity of "a little bit" > > If one looks at the instructions though, one will notice that there > are some optional ingredients in there. The last 2 paragraphs of the > ingredients has... > >

                      > You can serve it with Whipped > Cream and fruit,... Powdered Sugar > and fruit,... or even with cooked meat. >

                      >

                      > (Strawberries are a common fruit > to use.) >

                      > > It would make sense to be able to have the be marked up as optional > ingredients. > > So (in addition to that other marking-up I did before) how would this > get marked up?.... Although I'm not if this is as per your schema > proposal, maybe one could do something like... > >

                      > You can serve it with Whipped Cream and class="ingredient optional item">fruit,... class="ingredient optional item">Powdered > Sugar and fruit,... or even with cooked meat. >

                      >

                      > ( href="Strawberries">Strawberries are a common fruit to > use.) >

                      > > I've used 3 classes on each of those optional ingredients... > class="ingredient optional item". Does that work with your schema > proposal? See Scott Reynen's answer. I think your example is a great workaround until we find out something better. > Also... what classes are suppose to be used to mark up things > instructions for the recipe? (I'm not quite sure from the schema > proposal.) Do I just wrap all 5 paragraphs of the instructions in a > class-method? I.e., something like this?... > >
                      >

                      > ... >

                      > ... >

                      > ... >

                      >
                      That's correct. Method steps has been suggested but there never really was a discussion of it. Personally, I think it is superfluous. If people want to mark up the method as steps it can be done with Plain Old Semantic HTML. What do others think of this? > And... I'd also suggest that for the photo, that the "photo" class not > necessarily have to be put on the tag. So that, although you > could do... > > > > I'd suggest you also allow for... > > > > Some software may not allow authors to actually create the tag > themselves, because they have an automated way of doing it, but may > allow you to put tags around it, like a with class-photo. > Hadn't thought of that. If there are no objections to this, I will change the proposal to say something like "must include an element with src="[url]"." > > I'd also suggest that instead of using "entry-title" and > "entry-summary" that "recipe-title" and "recipe-summary" be used > instead, so that the semantics of each is free to vary on their own. > > (You could always do stuff like class="recipe-title entry-title" if > you want to throw hAtom markup in there too.) > > > One further things regarding ingredients. On this page... > > http://changelog.ca/topic/Nan-e%20Nokhodchi > > ... there is the ingredient... > >
                      > 4 tablespoons of unsalted, slivered href="Pistachios">Pistachios for garnish >

                      > > Is the item here just the "Pistachios"? Or is it the "unsalted, > slivered Pistachios"? > I would say that's ... 4 tablespoons of unsalted, slivered Pistachios Thinking about it, maybe the "note" property is superfluous too. I mean, it could just be marked up as: 4 tablespoons of unsalted, slivered Pistachios But maybe the "note" property could be useful when searching a database, i.e. you could search for "[item:] pistachios" and then narrow it down to "[note:] unsalted [item:] pistachios". Opinions? > Also, another ingredient says... > >
                      > 4 ½ cups of fine, roasted Chick-Pea Flour, sifted 3 times >
                      > > Does the "sifted 3 times" get any kind of special treatment? (Is that > an example of where class-note should be used?) > Yes, I would say it is. > > Here's the examples, for your list (if you want them)... > > http://changelog.ca/topic/Crepes > http://changelog.ca/topic/Nan-e%20Nokhodchi > > > See ya > > -- > Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. > http://ChangeLog.ca/ > _______________________________________________ > microformats-new mailing list > microformats-new@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new Thanks for your reply. -- Thomas From g51 at orthuber.com Sun Jun 8 13:58:44 2008 From: g51 at orthuber.com (W. Orthuber) Date: Sun Jun 8 13:02:14 2008 Subject: [uf-new] simple "pattern" structure for general numeric web search Message-ID: <001401c8c9aa$70888e80$17b2a8c0@nameffe5190f44> Hi all, my proposal is to introduce in http://www.orthuber.com/wpa.htm defined, simple "pattern" structure (name + feature vector). Then we could realize step by step numeric, language independent web search. All web domain owners could define the (feature vectors of) objects for similarity comparison. This large working capacity is up to now not used. Obviously this possibility is up to now not well known. Currently I am searching for people for working together, so that we can make an initiative which at least leads to introduction of the "pattern" structure (and as consequence to realization of numerical web search). I would be pleased if there is interest in this group. Wolfgang From bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com Tue Jun 10 00:46:59 2008 From: bhawkeslewis at googlemail.com (Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis) Date: Tue Jun 10 00:47:08 2008 Subject: [uf-new] Recipe proposal In-Reply-To: <76751A0C-F40D-412B-B8D4-B84A4DFF5398@yahoo.dk> References: <0541E04B-AF9A-4A1D-A030-ED090CEF46BF@yahoo.dk> <84ce626f0806050934l77977e24gfb21b1d8f2500c13@mail.gmail.com> <76751A0C-F40D-412B-B8D4-B84A4DFF5398@yahoo.dk> Message-ID: <484E3173.7070603@googlemail.com> Thomas Yde wrote: > But maybe the "note" property could be useful when searching a database, > i.e. you could search for "[item:] pistachios" and then narrow it down > to "[note:] unsalted [item:] pistachios". Opinions? I doubt many humans would narrow their search beyond "pistachios". However, I can certainly imagine a home automation system using "unsalted pistachios" as part of a query to find recipes matching the ingredients left in your fridge and larder. Compare the "Menu Suggester" application envisaged by David A. Mundie: http://www.anthus.com/Recipes/CompCook.html So I guess it boils down to whether we want to support such applications with today's markup in the future, even if they're not commonplace now. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis From brian.suda at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 01:20:27 2008 From: brian.suda at gmail.com (Brian Suda) Date: Tue Jun 10 01:20:30 2008 Subject: [uf-new] Recipe proposal In-Reply-To: <484E3173.7070603@googlemail.com> References: <0541E04B-AF9A-4A1D-A030-ED090CEF46BF@yahoo.dk> <84ce626f0806050934l77977e24gfb21b1d8f2500c13@mail.gmail.com> <76751A0C-F40D-412B-B8D4-B84A4DFF5398@yahoo.dk> <484E3173.7070603@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <21e770780806100120n18e90743k4e81e38793237684@mail.gmail.com> On 6/10/08, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: > Thomas Yde wrote: > > > But maybe the "note" property could be useful when searching a database, > i.e. you could search for "[item:] pistachios" and then narrow it down to > "[note:] unsalted [item:] pistachios". Opinions? --- google base actually has alot of recipes and a schema which do not seem to be mention on the recipe-brainstorming page. It might be worth looking into how the model some of these more edge-case items (or even if they bothered) http://base.google.com/base/s2?a_n0=recipes&a_y0=9&hl=en&gl=us -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk From thomasyde at yahoo.dk Tue Jun 10 09:30:44 2008 From: thomasyde at yahoo.dk (Thomas Yde) Date: Tue Jun 10 09:30:50 2008 Subject: [uf-new] Recipe proposal In-Reply-To: <21e770780806100120n18e90743k4e81e38793237684@mail.gmail.com> References: <0541E04B-AF9A-4A1D-A030-ED090CEF46BF@yahoo.dk> <84ce626f0806050934l77977e24gfb21b1d8f2500c13@mail.gmail.com> <76751A0C-F40D-412B-B8D4-B84A4DFF5398@yahoo.dk> <484E3173.7070603@googlemail.com> <21e770780806100120n18e90743k4e81e38793237684@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/06/2008, Brian Suda wrote: > On 6/10/08, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: >> Thomas Yde wrote: >> >>> But maybe the "note" property could be useful when searching a >>> database, >> i.e. you could search for "[item:] pistachios" and then narrow it >> down to >> "[note:] unsalted [item:] pistachios". Opinions? > > > --- google base actually has alot of recipes and a schema which do not > seem to be mention on the recipe-brainstorming page. It might be worth > looking into how the model some of these more edge-case items (or even > if they bothered) > > http://base.google.com/base/s2?a_n0=recipes&a_y0=9&hl=en&gl=us I've added Google Base to the recipe-examples page. As far as I can tell from looking at the Google Base recipes, they don't mark up ingredient notes. In this recipe, for instance: http://base.google.com/base/a/1468990/D15784743035925148548 the ingredient chokolate is just marked up as "chocolate" in the details (the searchable part) but in the ingredients part (free form html) it is specified as "unsweetened chocolate". So, in short, Google Base ignores ingredient notes. > I doubt many humans would narrow their search beyond "pistachios". > However, I can certainly imagine a home automation system using > "unsalted pistachios" as part of a query to find recipes matching > the ingredients left in your fridge and larder. > > Compare the "Menu Suggester" application envisaged by David A. Mundie: > > http://www.anthus.com/Recipes/CompCook.html > > So I guess it boils down to whether we want to support such > applications with today's markup in the future, even if they're not > commonplace now. I think this use case fails to live up to the principle about solving simpler problems first (http://microformats.org/wiki/ solve_simpler_problems_first). IIMO, we should leave this out for the firts version. -- Thomas From supercanadian at gmail.com Sun Jun 22 23:11:45 2008 From: supercanadian at gmail.com (Charles Iliya Krempeaux) Date: Sun Jun 22 23:18:31 2008 Subject: [uf-new] Recipe proposal In-Reply-To: <84ce626f0806050934l77977e24gfb21b1d8f2500c13@mail.gmail.com> References: <0541E04B-AF9A-4A1D-A030-ED090CEF46BF@yahoo.dk> <84ce626f0806050934l77977e24gfb21b1d8f2500c13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <84ce626f0806222311o7244d693l9e88e7cfb4beb348@mail.gmail.com> Hello, On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: [...] > - The use of the HTML entity ½ to mean "one half" -- to mean > 1/2. There's other HTML entities that are similar to this too. Like > ¼ and ¾ Another note. Some people use the "⁄" HTML entity to make fractions. I.e., the "Fraction Slash" HTML entity. (Which could be specified as "⁄" too... and its other formats.) As in... 1⁄2 (Which means "one half".) Some use the and elements to make it look more like a fraction. As in... 1⁄2 Note that the "Fraction Slash" is more horizontal than the "Slash" character (/). So.... they are different things. Traditionally, the "Fraction Slash" is called the "Solidus". (Although I think UNICODE doesn't do this for some reason I don't know.) See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. http://ChangeLog.ca/